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Pole developing new 100% CNC machined Super-Enduro & DH mountain bike frames

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Pole Bicycles out of Finland told us last year that they had started researching a carbon bike project, then abruptly brought that to a halt this summer over environmental concerns. But the real news out of that development was another all-new frame production method in the pipeline. Sticking with alloy, Pole have developed a process to entirely 3D CNC machine both front & rear ends of their next trail mountain bikes…

Cancelled Pole carbon fiber frame project

Back to the carbon for a second. Pole apparently spent around two years developing carbon frames before ultimately scrapping the project late this summer. Doing their research and development work in Finland they had the project close to finished, and headed off to China where they had lined up a suitable production factory to build the frames. But they just weren’t happy with the how the carbon production facilities there were treating either workers or the environment.

Now Pole made clear to us that they aren’t trying to save the world or claim some moral high ground. They just realized that they could do better themselves, closer to home. (Read more on their in-depth thoughts here.) A lot of that is about increasing production efficiency & decreasing production labor by moving more towards automation. And that certainly doesn’t rule out carbon further into the future. But it does make a lot of sense with this move to a EU machined alloy frame…

#AREYOUMACHINED CNC machined aluminum bike project

photos courtesy of Pole Bicycles

Now to that machined frame. Pole is keeping the final details close to their chest for now. But they have let out this rather revealing photo teaser, with a rendering of the complete bike in the background. Pole’s short link Evolink suspension design appears unchanged and still keeps two bottle cage mounts inside the front triangle. This frame also appears to route all cables internally (that cable port in the downtube is likely to route the rear derailleur, not a sideswing front derailleur) and has a low direct-mount for a chain guide in place of ISCG tabs.

Pole says the new Super-Enduro bike is being 100% CNC machined in Finland out of aerospace grade aluminum. They claim it will in no way be hand made, leaving production almost entirely up to robots. That doesn’t really answer how you end up with a hollow aluminum shape. Is the bike a welded-together clamshell design?

What we do know is that more details are coming soon. And the first bike will be available for pre-order in just over one month’s time – on Black Friday (Nov 24).

The new bike of course will carry their unique new school geometry – super long wheelbases and slack headtubes – for unmatched descending. First up will be what they are calling a Super Enduro frame (we are guessing that puts it in the 150-160mm travel range), then almost immediately followed by a DH bike. That supports Pole’s claims that this new manufacturing process yields an incredibly tough and strong frame.

After that a light trail bike like their Evolink 130 is expected to follow in a new CNC variant, and then even a trail e-MTB. OK, that’s pretty much what we know on the Pole #areyoumachined bikes for now. Rest assured, we will update you when we find more details.

 

PoleBicycles.com

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Derek J Baker
Derek J Baker
6 years ago

How much more friendly to the environment is Alu frame manufacturing? I know Ti is pretty bad over all, and I’m surprised by carbon…

Muchachos
Muchachos
6 years ago
Reply to  Derek J Baker

With the amount of wasted aluminum they will have, they are about one zillion percent worse on the environment than a carbon frame. Sure, aluminum is recycled, but for the proper high grades of bicycle material, and the large billet they need to CNC from, there will be a MASSIVE amount of wasted energy spent during the smelting and refinement processes on simply wasted materials.

Sam
Sam
6 years ago
Reply to  Muchachos

Totally uneducated response. Aluminum chips from a Cnc are maybe one of the most recyclable byproducts produced in the cycling game. Aluminum is also cheap to block. Why would you shoot this down when you know so little about it?

Muchachos
Muchachos
6 years ago
Reply to  Sam

Cheap yes, but not evironmentally friendly. Getting product into a 6061 or 7075 state takes a lot of energy, and chips from milling it down are not recycled into the same grade of material, they are recycled into much lower grade aluminum products.

As for uneducated – yep, 20 years in bicycle supply chain – I know nothing

Mike
Mike
6 years ago
Reply to  Derek J Baker

Think whole of life too, carbon is far more repairable than alloy. Reuse before recycle.

Derek J Baker
Derek J Baker
6 years ago

Sorry. That should be NOT surprised by carbon. Never interweb before coffee!

Bike666
Bike666
6 years ago

There are two more pictures of the frame on their Instagram. It almost looks like the two half’s of the frame will be bolted together.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BYnwhf9gkwu/?taken-by=polebicycles

https://www.instagram.com/p/BZ7EGxGgHc7/?taken-by=polebicycles

JNH
JNH
6 years ago
Reply to  Bike666

I would imagine the finished product will be close to what Empire used to do, with the CNC parts being assembled on a jig and then welded together. Empire moved to casting major parts, the welding and cutting/facing because pure CNC assemblies turned out too expensive. I wonder if Pole will run into the same kind of problems with cost.

Leo Kokkonen
6 years ago
Reply to  JNH

We’re not welding because we’ll use 7075 aluminium. That can not be welded.

Dennis
Dennis
6 years ago
Reply to  Leo Kokkonen

Glueing would be the best I guess. This has been done in aerospace products for years, so it’s a proven concept.

Jeff
Jeff
6 years ago

I hope that CNC machine is only powered by 100% green electricity. Also what happens with all the waste? If they don’t like the working conditions in China, why not build carbon in house in Finland?

ELEVEN
6 years ago
Reply to  Jeff

Carbon is diabolically nasty for the environment. From the fabric through to the resins and epoxies, to date not one element can be effectively recycled in a commercially viable way (there are efforts but none are widespread). Al off cuts, shavings etc. can all be recycled.

JNH
JNH
6 years ago
Reply to  Jeff

Aluminium swarf is usually gathered, pressed into blocks and recycled. Alu is easy to recycle and extracting new Alu by electrolysis is expensive, so recycling is very common. It certainly generates less waste than carbon production, even basic carbon layups generate piles of unusable offcuts, which end up as landfill.

graveller
graveller
6 years ago

Jeff ya know the spare aluminum bits are quite easy to recycle

Jamie Maguire
Jamie Maguire
6 years ago

I think Jeff’s got ‘Carbon Guilt’ 😉

Oh and the Finn’s are pretty good at the green energy stuff

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Finland

Leo Kokkonen
6 years ago
Reply to  Jamie Maguire

“Carbon Guilt” LOL

luddite
luddite
6 years ago

A classic case of “just because you can, doesn’t mean you should”.
Hydroformed tubing is just such a more efficient use of the material.

Chris Elliott
Chris Elliott
6 years ago
Reply to  luddite

Amen, brother. Turning a billet into ≥95% swarf isn’t good sense. Add the energy costs of all that machining and the questionable minimum wall thickness it don’t smell right.

andrew
andrew
6 years ago
Reply to  Chris Elliott

They’re probably machining back a pressed or hydroformed part… Surely??? This makes little sense apart from a PR exercise.

voodoobike
6 years ago

Drawn tubes and welded is a better construction technique for weight and strength. CNC will be heavier no matter what, yet more durable perhaps. I see this carbon, then no carbon and now CNC all as being PR more than innovation though.

ELEVEN
6 years ago
Reply to  voodoobike

CNC from billet is never as strong as forged or drawn.

Woody
Woody
6 years ago
Reply to  voodoobike

Bingo!!! Nothing more than a PR stunt

Lawrence
Lawrence
6 years ago

Yawn…leading edge technology straight out of the 90’s.Remember Alex Pong and Cannondale’s machined billet mountain bike? It’s frame construction was far more advanced than this, and it still died a quiet death. Back then it was a right of passage to say you could machine the whole frame from solid, but it’s still a horribly inefficient way to make bikes.

Marin
Marin
6 years ago

This is passion purchase.
No one is going to get it because it’s practical, light or cheap.
It looks far better than regular alu welded frame and it’s unique.
Also, made in Finland (EU) is going to be big selling point and if it’s mostly machine made, so there’s little labour cost and team can be small, especially if they sell just the frames.

They are probably going to get financial help from the EU/Government and there’s no import tax meaning they’ll make for money per unit.

Construction could be bonded perhaps, like the Shimano hollow cranks.

comrad
6 years ago

lmao what a waste of energy, time, and resources.

Cowtowncyclist
Cowtowncyclist
6 years ago

Anyone who rode a set of CNC machined cranks back in the 90s can tell you why this is a bad idea. Drawing tubes or forging them makes a much stronger frame. This smells of marketing. But hey, I’m sure there is a sucker out there with a short memory to buy them.

nsp234
nsp234
6 years ago

Bonded Alu pieces can work fine, think Cannondale Hollowgram cranks. I doubt that an entire Frame can be reasonably light though.

Ripnshread
Ripnshread
6 years ago
Reply to  nsp234

Yes I think about my CODA Magic Motorcycle cranks from the 90’s…they split in half at the bond interface. Better glue these days I guess.

Leo Kokkonen
6 years ago
Reply to  Ripnshread

A lot better as your car is glued and most of the airplane parts are glued together.

Frippolini
Frippolini
6 years ago

Why are all the critics out there so eager to ventilate their negative first impressions? Let the tests, reviews and facts speak for themselves as they will emerge – and then pass judgement.

Finland is a country of high standards and with plenty of good engineers. Automation yes, I’m all for it; and in fact I believe if you ask any company leader or owner if they agree that automation is good for business I’m sure almost all of them will agree. Same thing goes for environmental friendliness.
Sure, carbon fiber is nice, good, light; but it too has is drawbacks such as requiring a high level of manual labor, expensive molds, not being environmental friendly, etc., not mentioning some of the material and build weaknesses that come with manufacturing parts and products from it.

I’m curious to know more about Pole’s frame and how it holds up in terms of strength, weight, durability and longevity; and at the same time I applaud Pole, and in fact anyone, that has the guts to put their money and time, and not just words, to innovate and explore new paths. I for sure will keep my eyes open to read more about Pole and their new frame and I wish them all the best.

Dylan
Dylan
6 years ago
Reply to  Frippolini

People are just pointing out some simple engineering truths about comparative construction methods. These are much closer to ‘facts’ than you will ever get from a bike review or test, let alone from the manufacturer (whether Pole or anyone else).
Using CNC to produce a thin-walled tubular structure is inevitably much more time consuming (even before you consider this frame would have to be welded or bonded afterwards) and materials and energy intensive than forging, for a result that (weight for weight) is not as strong.

Leo Kokkonen
6 years ago
Reply to  Dylan

We’ve heard a lot of “engineering truths” throughout our history that say “it’s not possible” but still we produce the markets longest bike that has proven to be faster going on tight switchbacks. Just keep an eye out on the Enduromag. You will be surprised.

The CNC machining might sound like no go for mass production method but in the right hands machining is the most reasonable manufacturing method. It’s not nearly the same but Apple is machining their laptops. What do you think about that?

nsp234
nsp234
6 years ago

Btw: this guy does an entire mainframe from one single piece of aluminum. Cool somehow! https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRArXz_rIcXPcL6vsBObrOQEMMotWoCWOfhVvU7t9ogFl8Gp1VN

ELEVEN
6 years ago

All arguments of CNC vs Carbon vs…. aside if statement “But they just weren’t happy with the how the carbon production facilities there were treating either workers or the environment.” is more than marketing (which I suspect it is, based of starting the project from scratch again), hats off to them. More companies should have this level of ethos and pride in their end product.

Ripnshread
Ripnshread
6 years ago

If they have the capability to CNC a frame out of billit they could just as easily CNC the mold and do the carbon production in house. I’m thinking this is just a stopgap product while they figure that out.

Muchachos
Muchachos
6 years ago

I call BS. I have visited the majority of Chinese carbon factories, and their remark is straight up hyperbole. I challenge them to mention which exact factories they are referring to

Robin
Robin
6 years ago
Reply to  Muchachos

Irony: anonymous person with claimed expertise challenges the credibility of a real, named company and it’s people.

Robin
Robin
6 years ago
Reply to  Robin

*its.

Thrash Metal
Thrash Metal
6 years ago
Reply to  Robin

I’m anonymous and I’ve also visted and become a customer of some carbon factories in Asia. There’s plenty of good ones over there and I’ve worked in worse (legal) conditions doing summer agency jobs as a student, to put that side of it in context.

A brand is free to say it doesn’t like carbon for whatever reason, but justify it. If you didn’t like what you saw, call out the facility or give details rather than feed this myth of Aisan sweat shops etc.

mojo au gogo
mojo au gogo
6 years ago

until ridden there is no actual knowledge of how it works… all the nonsense about china and waste etc is nonsense…

Dustytires
6 years ago

I have been to half as many Chinese / Taiwan factories as Muchachos, but seen exactly the same. Workers treated well, with scheduled smoke breaks, lunch breaks with cafeterias on factory as many are on the edge of rural, clean work areas, good ventilation. All that BS about mis treated people is pure marketing. Even the alloy plants are well ventilated, with clear safety zones etc.

maybe POLE will end up buying near net forgings from Taiwan to greatly reduce machine time and increase strength, which like the Shimano cranks would make a better, more efficient product. I just cannot see how a full CNC machined (claimed) makes any sense other than we are all talking about it. In that case, its cheap marketing

Leo Kokkonen
6 years ago
Reply to  Dustytires

Yes. They are treating the people decent but we never said they are sweat-shops. They did have decent working hours and time to take breaks but the people are still living mostly in the factory. The factory handles a lot of toxic materials and I would not want my id to grow up in place like that.

Anyhow this is also subjective opinion of mine. In my ideal world people are not working in factories as doing processes that could be automated. Carbon fiber frame manufacturing can not be automated and if we can make frames by robots, it’s worth seeing more trouble on doing so.

Alex
Alex
6 years ago

Who spends two years developing a carbon bike with no forethought on where they’re going to make it or what the environmental impact will be? Where the facts of the carbon process in China somehow magically hidden from these innocent and naive Finns?

Muchachos
Muchachos
6 years ago
Reply to  Alex

No, my guess is that they drew a pretty picture in a computer, and when they went to produce it and were hit with the $100k tooling bill, they found out they didn’t actually have the stones to do what they claimed, and came up with false reasons to back out.

Tom
Tom
6 years ago
Reply to  Muchachos

This.

First, decide what you want to do, then figure out how to “back justify” it.

Leo Kokkonen
6 years ago
Reply to  Muchachos

Muchachos, Actually we are putting much more money than 100k to our own facotry.

Alex, you got it wrong. It’s not just the environmentally thing. It’s all together: Littering, Chinese mentality of wasting resources, people living at the factory, non recyclable waste, waste of water during the process…

Despite all above facts. Would you want your kids to work in a carbon frame factory?

finkill
6 years ago

That picture of the machined aluminium block looks a lot like a mold to me, Looking at the other image of the frame it seems more likely that this frame is investment cast, rather than being CNCd from solid.

Smale Rider
Smale Rider
6 years ago

I’d just be happy if the current 150 enduro came in more sizes. I’d also like to see just in general better availablity of their frames. Their current frames lack expansive availability, if they can’t get normal stuff right, how is making CNC machined frames going to improve availability.

Goliath
Goliath
6 years ago

Bauxite mining isn’t a saintly process…
1. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-35340528
“The problem with soil deterioration is that we do not see the damage done until months later, when you look at the trees, they look healthy but in actual fact, the soil has already been destroyed by toxicity found in bauxite”

2. http://www.academia.edu/5937075/ENVIRONMENTAL_IMPACT_OF_BAUXITE_MINING_IN_THE_WESTERN_GHATS_IN_SOUTH_MAHARASHTRA_INDIA
“…it is exposed that the bauxite mining activity is not sustainable, and this is being increasingly realised by the locals as well”

3. http://www.therakyatpost.com/news/2016/02/04/long-term-impact-of-bauxite-mining-a-cause-for-concern/
“Whatever the benefits were, they do not appear to justify the enormous environmental damage that has been done.”

CF? Yes, there are environmental problems surrounding legacy wate generation – however this is a summary of the current (2015) state of recycling:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0079642515000316
“The recycling of composite materials is on the right track, but challenges still have to be taken-up in order to finally make it a commercial reality. The innovation has just started in this field and for this reason it is also a source of opportunities.”

Remember: The More You Know…

Michael clyne
Michael clyne
6 years ago

Jeezo theres plenty of keyboard warriors out there. Muchachos…. i imagine leo wont name and shame any factories out of the same reasons of professional resepect and privacy as your refusal to reveal your own name and credentials. As for material choice pretty much any material can be classed as anti-environment. Imagine the swathes of land and animal habitat lost if every bike was made from bamboo!! Personally i applaud you leo on nearly every level of this. Apart from one thing…… automating. Damned right people shouldn’t have to work long hours in unhealthy environments…… but the end result ,if everything is being automated, is no employment, idle hands, boredom, which leads to friction and violence because theres a lot of folk in the world like muchachos who like to stir shit. the impossibility of a utopia where nobody works and everyone is happy is indeed that. Impossible. We need work to feel useful and a creative / important part of life.

Scott
6 years ago

Lots and LOTS of uneducated comments here but some good points as well. I own a full CNC machine shop fully equipped with multi axis machining centers, 5 axis, Multi turret turning centers and a full engineering and programming staff. The cycling industry is abound with naysayers and ridiculous comments. I developed a mold to produce MIM titanium freehubs that we showed at the hand built bike show and the only comment was the tool shop was not worth d*ck because it showed a picture of a die bar “crowbar” with non brass tips next to it. OMG… Truth is yes the billet machined chips can be 100% recycled so therefore its totally environmentally friendly. We recycle tons of aluminum chips every year. YES if you own your own milling center and programming software you can do it fairly cheap. If you have to rely on Joe machine shop next door. He is going to charge you $125.00/hour to surface cut this so NO its is no cheap. The time it will take to cut these monoque halves is approximately 32-50 (per half) hours depending on machine, programming software utilization and surface finish you are trying to get. Hence the poor surface finish in these pictures for the internal machining only. Do the math,,,ain’t going to work!! No it isn’t investment cast, NO it isn’t glued, NO it isn’t a composite mold you are seeing. They are machining the internal features first then bolting the plates together. Think of a aluminum plate sandwich with the internal features somewhere in the middle. Then they are “probably” vacuum brazing them in a autoclave style furnace. This “sandwich” will then need to be heat treated and quenched if they are using 6xxx series aluminum, OR aged if 7xxx aluminum to get it back to T6. The heat from the vacuum furnace will drop the T condition back. Final step is taking this “sandwich” and finish machining the outside features that you see. I think its genius,,,You have full control of your internal features to achieve strength, ride quality, weight, bike geometry. The list is endless. I hope they/we if you can read between the lines here, get this process working.

Manco
Manco
5 years ago

Fascinating to read all the instant detractors take on Pole’s truly revolutionary bike concept before they were available. Now that they exist and I’ve extensively ridden both the Machine and the Evolink 140, (and now own a new Evolink 140 29) most of these comments appear as ignorance exemplified. The bikes are amazing in their design, performance and ride-ablity. Anyone who is criticizing has very likely “never” ridden the bike or even seen it in person. The spin of carbon somehow being a more green process is clearly ridiculous. Move on dinosaurs of the mtb world:)

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